Strawberry Fields Forever - Nothing is real

Sunday, September 05, 2004

(un)Civil discourse in America today

This is somewhat a followup to an older post where I talked about limits of reasonable debate. I largely grew up (and still live) in a very conservative area in Los Angeles county (yes, such a thing exists), Palos Verdes. It's a very affluent, and extraordinarily conservative area. In Jr. High when there would be debates on abortion, the debates would be me against 30 other people, with mine being the sole pro-Choice voice. (yes, I learned how to shout over all 30) Eventually I got tired of such repetitive debates, and I also learned that some people just aren't worth the effort. Far too many in our society match in a very serious way the words John Lennon sang in sympathy, "He's as blind as he can be, just sees what he wants to see, Nowhere Man can you see me at all?"

I am not limiting this to the right or the left. I've had Communists scream in my face because I wasn't against all forms of capitalism, and I've had people become apoplectic because I did not agree with his view of how great the current President is. Unfortunately, many many people do not agree with Voltaire's words - "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to death your right to say it."

In a free society, this is unfortunately a fact of life - not everyone chooses to have an open mind or is willing to accept that other points of view can possibly be valid. Thankfully many do. I may not be the best person on Earth at respecting other view points, and there are definitely some view points I will not tolerate (especially of those in positions of power). I will not tolerate people defending Nazism. I will not tolerate people advocating indiscriminate violence . I will not tolerate those who profess racism, sexism, agism, homophobia, heterophobia, and the ilk. I will not tolerate those who honestly hate and wish to destroy this nation, and there are some. (generally these people will freely admit to this) Note: there is of course a difference between those who disagree with policies, disagree with leadership, condemn parts of this nations varied past, and those who entirely hate and wish to destroy this nation. Criticism is patriotic. Destruction is not.

As a note, if you try to explain that Britney Spears is superior to the Beatles, then we have a problem. I can be philosophical (sorta) when it comes to politics, political theory and other issues. However, the Beatles rule, period.

My grandfather (on my father's side) was an arch-conservative with lots of issues. He had alienated much of the family by the time he passed away from lung cancer due to other issues. That said, he did his best to be good to myself and my sister. He knew that even then I had largely formed a political viewpoint contrary to his own. I will never know if what he said to me was what he honestly believed or if he was trying to change me in a way that wouldn't further tick off the family or myself, but he told me words that I do try to live by, "always try to look on both sides to make sure you're correct."

I don't delude myself into thinking I will change anyone's heart-felt views with this site, or in my life. However, I do have the faith in the strength of my ideas and ideals that I believe in the free market of ideas my views can do pretty well. I also happen to believe that discussion can be fascinating even if not a single person changes their view. I have loved the few discussions on here that have remained civil. No one changed their view, but that isn't always the point. Remember, in ancient Greece, three of the most famous philosophers followed each other: Socrates, Plato and then Aristotle. Each held radically different views of the universe and how it worked. All of them were brilliant. Smart people can disagree. And in my case, even the far more mediocre minds can as well.

Pluralism, the idea that opposing viewpoints can and should exist, that's part of the true genius of our founding fathers. Even in these troubled days, we should all try to remember that. (and I'll include myself in that)

BTW: This does not mean I will quit criticizing the administration, or Republicans in general, and the other sides should not relent either. We can all do so in a better manner.

5 Comments:

  • I suppose you didn't receive my message about overseas voting quite a few entries back (on the one where you said that you're too busy to post - http://i-am-walrus.blogspot.com/2004/08/compendium-of-other-lessons-from.html)? :) Did you receive the political discussions that I'd forwarded to you?

    I feel the same way about talking civilly. That's why I enjoy the email discussions managed by my friend, Stephen Bauer, because we have a whole mix of "conservatives" and "liberals." (I'm a firm believer that in many of the issues discussed today, one really can't place a label of conservative or liberal on it but should say tha they are a matter of personal morals - or scruples, if you prefer.) And the discussions may seem forceful and stubborn, but they're not really angry at all. Most of the people in the list are either friends or acquaintances on good terms and have been for a while now.

    Like I'd spoken to you about before, many people can't put together the ideas of my being a Christian and of reading the New Left Review and agreeing with quite a few leftist ideas. They think true Christianity means that I should be a conservative. Well, not necessarily. On some of these things, who's to say what's a "conservative" ideal? I don't think anybody would disagree with ideas of equality, but some believe it means taxing certain members of society more, and others believe in tax cuts. People forget that today's left (I mean real left, not the people who throw around labels of "politically correct" or "tolerance" or "progressive education" but don't really know what they're talking about. It's funny to read articles in the NLR that dissect these people and then discredit them!) are more institutionalised and don't actually believe in a working-class revolution anymore. They believe more in getting involved with the academic world. So I can't believe it when people still say, "America is corrupt because it's gone so far left! Look at all your BS leftist ideas! The country is being run by a lot of commies!" Firstly, is it really left, or what people assume to be left? Secondly, people don't have to be "commies" to believe in some leftist ideals.

    Personally, I obviously have different views of the institution of marriage and some art and literature. (I don't think marriage is necessarily an evil capitalist institution to secure financial stability and make one partner submit to the other - it CAN be, but it isn't always. And I disagree on some viewpoints of what is necessarily classist, romanticised BS, though there's less of a disagreement here because it's amazing how many *cough*Chinese*cough* writers nowadays to hide under the superficial label of traditionalism and write garbage. Traditional writers would be ashamed of them.) Anybody else who read that - I'm Chinese; I'm allowed to say it.

    But I believe that I do very much keep my Christian ideals, and I know what my faith is. It's a part of me, so it does mean that a more "conservative" stance on certain things like abortion, but I understand that I can have different views on the way a lot of things should be implemented in politics and society. I also tend to get along with the actual completely "conservative" Christians I know. I can respect their views and they can respect mine - when it comes down to it they are petty issues; who will really say that they're against education or equality? Neither side will question the other's faith based on these things.

    I probably highly disagree with you on a few issues as well, but you more or less back up what you say. (Humorous/sarcastic entries don't count! ^_~) As for hating this country...well, I waver between stances on that. Often I will say that I hate America, I hate having come back, and I hate how it has become. But in a way I criticise it so harshly because I love this country (I can't help that I was born here!), and I don't like to see it go to ruin. Or rather I won't make my nationality a matter of shame or weakness to me. There's always a way to improve. And often I'm ready to give up and can't wait to "grow up and leave" this country as soon as possible, but when it comes down to it, I'll defend a lot of things about this country. It has had the power to take over the world for a long time already, and it hasn't. Who will accept the political refugees if America wasn't here? What other country's institutions will not only support these same refugees speaking out against their government but give them a very decent place to live and allow them to take free classes and associate with the top scholars of the country? So, yes, with me it depends on the situation.

    I agree with you about debates in school, though. Often I just get up and make enough good points for the teacher to note that I did my research, and I give up trying to shout over people. Having gone through the IGCSE and IB in Bangkok, where kids are encouraged to do their own research and write their own theses beginning junior high, I rolled my eyes at the debates here. Nothing formal or organised at all. But it's okay; I assume that they won't be as successful trying to shout their way to victory in a college paper! ^_^ And there are just so many STUPID and IGNORANT and INSENSITIVE people like that person I ranted to you about this morning on AIM (sorry about that; did the number of messages when you returned scare you?) that I don't bother with them anymore.

    On anothe note, however, I've FINALLY completely finished 6677.us! Yay! Wow it took me a few weeks longer than usual because of the moving. Okay you're not concerned with that. It's just a kind of random happy cheer - doesn't matter of you get it or agree or not. ^_~ But HERE is a shameless plug: Visit the forums - http://forums.eternal-waves.com!

    God bless, hugs and kisses.

    Lots of Love,
    ><> Elizabeth <><

    http://foreversaved.diaryland.com
    http://www.eternal-waves.com
    http://www.fadinglight.com
    http://forums.eternal-waves.com
    http://www.edojo.net

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:58 PM  

  • Hey! By the way, I thought you'd be interested in this: http://www.virtualdevices.net :) ^_~

    God bless, hugs and kisses.

    Lots of Love,
    ><> Elizabeth <><

    http://foreversaved.diaryland.com
    http://www.eternal-waves.com
    http://www.fadinglight.com
    http://forums.eternal-waves.com
    http://www.edojo.net

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:40 PM  

  • I would like to introduce myself.......



    I am John Kerry.



    I was against the first Iraq war. I am against the second Iraq war, but

    I voted for it. Now I'm against it but I was for it. I support the UN.

    I'm against terrorism and against the Iraq war. But I voted for the Iraq

    war. So, I voted against the first war and supported the second war,

    wait.....



    I'm against gay marriage but for gay unions. I support gays but think

    the San Francisco mayor is wrong. I support gay marriages. No, wait, gay

    unions.



    I'm Catholic. Wait, I'm Jewish. My dad was Jewish. But I was raised

    Catholic. What am I? I don't want to confuse people.



    I am for abortions, but wait, I'm Catholic, and Catholics are pro-life.

    But I might consider putting pro-life judges in office, but I'm not

    sure. I do know I voted for a pro-life judge, but I stated that it was a

    mistake.



    I went to Vietnam. But I was against Vietnam. I testified against

    fellow U.S. Troops in Vietnam, threw my medals away and led others to do

    the same. But I am a war hero. Against the war.



    I stated I threw my medals away then I threw my ribbons away. I then

    revealed that I threw my ribbons away but not my medals, then lately I

    stated that I threw someone else's medals away and never threw anything

    of mine away.



    I believe Ribbons and medals aren't the same thing. Medals come with

    ribbons, so now I believe that ribbons and medals are the same thing

    besides the fact that ribbons are cloth and medals are medal.



    I wrote a book that pictured the U.S. Flag upside-down on its cover. But

    now I fly and campaign in a plane with a large flag right-side up on it.

    But sometimes, we fly upside-down for fun.



    Yasser Arafat is a hero and a statesman. The Israelis shouldn't kill

    Palestinian terrorists, but they should stop terrorism. Yasser Arafat is

    a terrorist supporter. I support Mideast peace.



    I am for the common man, unlike Bush. I am against the rich. But my

    family is worth $300 million dollars has a jet and many SUV's. I am the

    common man.



    I am against sending jobs overseas. My wife is a Heinz heir, which Heinz

    has most factories offshore. I am against rewarding companies for

    exporting jobs as long as it is not Heinz.



    I own $1 million in Wal-Mart stock. I believe Wal-Mart is evil by

    driving small business owners out of town. I am a capitalist and I own

    part of Wal-Mart but I am a good guy for small corporate America.



    I own SUV's when I talk to my followers in Detroit, Michigan, Teresa

    owns SUV's, I don't, when I talk to "tree-hugging" followers. I have a

    campaign jet that gets 1/3 mpg, which is great fuel efficiency.



    I am against making military service an issue in presidential elections.

    I defended a draft dodger Clinton and stated that all serve in their own

    capacity whether they draft dodge or not. Did I

    mention, I served in Vietnam and am a hero? Are you questioning my

    patriotism? I served in Vietnam. My opponent didn't. I have three purple

    hearts! I am a hero. I am qualified to run this country since I

    served....those 4 months, which seemed like a lifetime!!!



    I am John Kerry. (What you see is what you get).



    .....and remember, my initials are JFK, but I'm not John Fitzgerald

    Kennedy!!! .... (but right now I wish I was!!!).

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:10 AM  

  • If you want to repeat someone else's thoughts, please leave a citation. Though I suppose it may be tough given so many seem to be posting these exact words to so many comments sections. As of this comment, google can find 67 posts on the net using this exact wording. (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+qualified+to+run+this+country+since+I%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0)

    This brings further definition to the term "ditto-heads"

    If you want a discussion, I am here. If you want to post the same idiotic attempt at humor that all of your friends are posting, then there are plenty of other places to do so.

    By Blogger Jim Casaburi, at 4:29 AM  

  • It's very late, but I wanted to be sure that the list of more appropriate sites to put that drivel was posted. Now to get a bit of sleep before I resume posting and replying. Hope all are well!

    By Blogger Jim Casaburi, at 4:31 AM  

Post a Comment

<< Home